0:00:00 - (Will Rucker): You're tuned in to Compassionate Las Vegas, the podcast where compassion inspires action. Together, we're building a world centered in understanding, empathy, and courageous action. Starting right here in the heart of Southern Nevada, we're taking the principle of do unto others as you would have them do unto you to heart. Now let's welcome a man committed to fostering compassion in every corner of our city.
0:00:24 - (Will Rucker): A beacon of compassion in Las Vegas, your host, Will Rucker.
0:00:28 - (Will Rucker): It's amazing to me that we've been on this journey together for so many years. If you're new to this podcast, I'm so glad you found your way here. And if you've been with me since the beginning, I can't tell you how grateful I am that we're still walking this path side by side. One of the beautiful things about this work, about practicing compassion is how timeless it is. The words, the lessons, the insights, they don't expire.
0:00:56 - (Will Rucker): They don't belong to one particular season of our lives. They keep unfolding. They keep meeting us where we are, no matter how much time has passed. That's why today I want to revisit a conversation that still feeds my soul. I remember the first time you shared it. The energy, the resonance, the way it landed. And here's the powerful part. We could sit down right now, have that same conversation again, and it would still feel fresh, because the practice of compassion never ages.
0:01:25 - (Will Rucker): Compassion is alive. It's dynamic. It grows with us. What we said then still matters now, maybe even more. And depending on where you are in your own journey, you might hear it differently this time. You might catch something you missed before, or it might touch a new part of you that's ready to open. So let's settle in like old friends on a couch, rewatching the moment that still has the power to move us.
0:01:50 - (Will Rucker): Let's revisit this conversation, not as a repeat, but as a reminder. Because some truths don't fade. They deepen. And that, to me, is the gift of compassion. Let's dive in.
0:02:02 - (Will Rucker): Welcome to the podcast, Thomas Legrand.
0:02:06 - (Thomas Legrand): Thank you, Will. It's a pleasure to be with you.
0:02:08 - (Will Rucker): How'd I do with my accent?
0:02:09 - (Thomas Legrand): Was that doing much better than me?
0:02:11 - (Will Rucker): Okay, good. Well, I'm so excited to have you because you have a book out called the Politics of Being, and this season that we're focused on politics, which the way I view politics is really just how do we get along as a community? And I think you have some really fascinating ideas, but you take us beyond where we've been, and some of these traditional viewpoints. And you're taking us into the realm of possibility and how we can truly thrive as a community locally, but also as a global community.
0:02:46 - (Will Rucker): So would you share a little bit about your background and this process of becoming you? Really?
0:02:51 - (Thomas Legrand): Yes. I think this reflection started with my own spiritual path, which started in Mexico 20 years ago while I was in a student exchange. And because of what I experienced from this spiritual pass, I have probably come to the conclusion that we're just so far away from tapping into our full potential, each of us as human beings and also as societies. Right. And I've. Because of this spiritual path, I think I've taken a path of service in exploring different aspects, working in the field of microfinance, working in the field of environmental conservation, management consulting, climate change, sustainable finance. So I've explored even, I would say alternative health.
0:03:41 - (Thomas Legrand): So I've explored quite different aspects of societies and what the change of paradigm that we need looks like in these different sectors. And working myself as an environmentalist, often with UN agencies, for example, I've come to two conclusions. One is that we seldom have the space, the opportunity to have the real deep conversations that we need about our societies, our communities. And to me, that goes back to recognize that the roots of many of our problems are inside of us, in our mindsets, in our hearts.
0:04:29 - (Thomas Legrand): The second aspect of that is working as an environmentalist. I've come to realize that there is so little we can achieve within this dominant development paradigm, which is all about economic growth. And I think looking at the depths of the challenges that we are now facing and that will be increasing in the future, in the coming decades, because we have a lot of disruptions coming on, either from technologies or from environmental crisis. So our world will be evolving so fast and create new and more and deeper challenges. And I've come to the conclusion that we really need to reorient what we mean by progress and the development of our societies, basically from economic growth, economic development, which is good per se, but is only a mean towards an end.
0:05:30 - (Thomas Legrand): And the real end to me is human flourishing, or what I call being.
0:05:36 - (Will Rucker): You've given us so much in just that introduction. And I want to make sure that our audience knows you are a PhD and for those that may have not heard it, you work with UN agencies.
0:05:50 - (Thomas Legrand): Exactly, yeah. And I did my PhD in ecological economics, and I stumbled on some of the main insights that are at the foundations of this reflection. You know, how institutions, for example, shape or mindsets, and whether they can bring. Bad aspects. I would say of Human being, you know, selfishness, greed, competition, etc. Or whether they could encourage cooperation and bring out the best in humans.
0:06:28 - (Thomas Legrand): So there is this. What's interesting, I think, is that my own reflection as a social scientist with this Ph.D. for example, my own work that I started to talk about with the UN and my own spiritual journey. So I live also in France next to Mindfulness Practice center, which is very famous from Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh. And these kind of three fields of experience have converged around the same message. That is the politics of being that prioritize in our lives both as individuals, but also as community, as nations.
0:07:12 - (Thomas Legrand): Being over having.
0:07:14 - (Will Rucker): I should have brought my note cards because you, you are just. I mean, I'm just inspired already. Two things that you mentioned. One is changing from this idea of having to being, but also this idea of an economic paradigm to something greater. Could you share a little bit about your viewpoint on what compassion is?
0:07:38 - (Thomas Legrand): Sure. So compassion is to be in empathy, connected with the suffering of others and having the will to alleviate this suffering. And I think compassion is part for true being. Like where we get more connected with ourselves, we are also getting more connected with others. There is this sense of separation tend to dissolve and then the suffering of others or even of the land can become experienced as our own suffering.
0:08:21 - (Thomas Legrand): And then we want to serve to alleviate that suffering. And I think, you know, compassion also comes really from this recognition that is very important that we are not that separate as it seems to be, that sooner or later what happens to the earth, what happens to others will affect me. Now we are not living in a bubble separate from all of that.
0:08:49 - (Will Rucker): So compassion dissolves this illusion of separation, including the illusion that we're separate from the planet that is our home.
0:08:59 - (Thomas Legrand): Exactly.
0:08:59 - (Will Rucker): Wow.
0:09:00 - (Thomas Legrand): Exactly.
0:09:01 - (Will Rucker): Now, why did you name your book the Politics of Being? Why wasn't it something, you know, like the Community of Being or, you know, why did you choose politics?
0:09:11 - (Thomas Legrand): Well, because my. I worked, you know, with your agency and mainly in the field of public policies. You know, what kind of systems we can create that can improve our lives. Right. So I wanted to show that we can create, and I give a lot of examples in the book of concrete public policies or concrete systems in many sectors. Education, health, justice, governance, economy, family, organization. So I wanted to show what does it look like how a more advanced civilization is organized, but not something in the far future. I'm using only almost exclusively concrete, real examples that are already happening.
0:10:08 - (Thomas Legrand): So if we can have the vision that these different pieces can be brought together into A new vision for societies into a new story also, then we can really, in relatively short time, completely transform our societies for something much greater.
0:10:32 - (Will Rucker): You're from France.
0:10:34 - (Thomas Legrand): Yes.
0:10:35 - (Will Rucker): What would you say most surprised you between the political climate in your home country and what you've seen here in the us?
0:10:45 - (Thomas Legrand): Well, there are some commonalities, of course, but I think the, the problems in the US are deeper and more and more visible. Right. And I talk a lot in this book. I talk a lot about the US Indeed. And I say in the introduction, I say I talk a lot about it because there is a lot of information, studies, reflections that are very interesting to build upon, but also because to me, the US is probably the countries that has been further away in this general mindset, or we can call it the general story that moves society, the story of separation, where the values such as individualism, materialism, reductionism, etc.
0:11:34 - (Thomas Legrand): Are very stronger and have led this country to a point where things start to be very difficult and is requiring some deep change, really deep conversation to how we can evolve our worldviews or mindsets. Yeah, even I would say even the philosophical, these values, they are really philosophical foundations of our society. And I think the change that we need is very deep. Some might say it's impossible, but I'm, and they say I'm too optimistic.
0:12:21 - (Thomas Legrand): And I just think that we won't be able to deal effectively with the challenges that we face if we don't make this kind of cultural evolution. And there are more and more, even in the UN people recognizing that.
0:12:37 - (Will Rucker): Yeah. So for most Americans, individualism is a huge part of who we are. We've become an economic superpower in a relatively short time as a nation, and you're proposing that we move beyond economics. So in a sense, what you're proposing is a complete shift in the identity of who we are as a nation. What would you say to someone that hears that and perhaps has some apprehension or some fear around what that means?
0:13:11 - (Thomas Legrand): Well, I would. I mean, it's true that the US has become quickly a superpower, but just let's have a look in terms of happiness and suffering. And you will have to recognize that the studies are very clear. It's not so much about money or power, it's about relationship with oneself, with one another, and how we can mental health, you know, So I think we need a. We need a recapitulation of the story, you know, of the country.
0:13:55 - (Thomas Legrand): What has been the story, why did we, why our identity has fought like that? How is it showing up now? What is the problems that are involved with that. And you know, from. I think it's like, you know, I often compare nations and individuals. Right. So one may have an identity, but this identity is creating him a lot of problem. One will not become someone else because he's evolving.
0:14:25 - (Will Rucker): Right.
0:14:25 - (Thomas Legrand): But he needs to do this work that find the right connection so that what he may become feels still, you know, true, authentic to him.
0:14:40 - (Will Rucker): Right.
0:14:40 - (Will Rucker): I love that. The way that you frame that. And what I'm visualizing is just natural development where you mature. When you were six years old, there were things that you did because you were six. But then when you're 60, you don't do those things in the same way.
0:14:56 - (Thomas Legrand): Exactly. Myself, my life has changed so much also because of my own personal journey. And I still feel like all that I've done is stay being part of me. But my life is just so different and I have completely different interests, etc. Than when I was a teenager, for example, or.
0:15:15 - (Will Rucker): Yeah. So you're not losing anything with this politics of being. You're adding on and expanding. Is that what I'm hearing?
0:15:24 - (Thomas Legrand): Exactly, exactly.
0:15:25 - (Will Rucker): One of the things you mention in perhaps a presentation, it may be in the book as well. But you call us out as a nation and you say America is one of the only developed countries that doesn't offer paid parental leave as a guarantee. Now I can tell you we care about our families, we care about the well being of our children. And as a nation, this is something that is a glaring issue because how do we adequately take care of our kids if we're not present?
0:15:58 - (Will Rucker): What do you think is the pathway to shifting the narrative in the nation where we actually adopt that as a policy?
0:16:04 - (Thomas Legrand): Well, I think we need, you know, as I said, these deeper conversations. We need to recognize how we feel inside. We need to recognize mental health issues, you know, that have been increasing that were already very strong in the US and have been increasing with COVID And so we need to look at all these data and just recognize what are the causes. That's my whole methodology. Every fact has a cause.
0:16:36 - (Thomas Legrand): And psychologists are very clear. The major factor of determining one's own capacity to flourish is a lot what we receive as a child in the first five years, some might say. And parental leave. In Sweden, they offer 18 months for parents to share among the two parents with 80% of their wage to be there in the first years, months and years of their children. That makes a huge difference for the child.
0:17:19 - (Thomas Legrand): And what I'm saying is that it's not only the basis of individual flourishing. It's also the basis of their capacity to contribute positively to society. So that's a good investment for society to actually invest in that. Otherwise you have a lot of, you have, you know, people doesn't feel secure. They have not received the love they need. And that manifests in societies sometimes through crimes or other negative aspects.
0:17:49 - (Will Rucker): So for the small business owner that says, I can't afford that if some of my staff is gone for 18 months, how do I run my business? What do you say to them?
0:17:59 - (Thomas Legrand): Well, they should not be the one paying. I mean, this should be in these countries, this is the whole society. Taxes are fueled to finance that. So it's not at the moment that someone of your employee is leaving is that you're paying a small amount each month so that when that happens, your employees will be able to benefit and the whole society will benefit of it.
0:18:26 - (Will Rucker): Again, that's a major shift from our individualism into a more collective paradigm, which I personally love. I think that's so important and I think evolutionarily we have proven that working together is how we can survive, let alone thrive. And also there's value in that independent spirit, that entrepreneurial spirit, in those that want to create and go for something different, you know, that unique.
0:19:02 - (Will Rucker): I'm saying individualism, but I almost mean more so of a uniqueness. And so there, I think there's value in both from this paradigm shift. How do you, I guess, reconcile the two of wanting to be unique, wanting to contribute something individual, but still keeping in mind the importance of the collective understanding and the collective well being.
0:19:29 - (Thomas Legrand): Exactly. Well, you know, I propose to make being the main goal of our society so that the societies can provide the right conditions for people to be and to express themselves. Right. And that could be definitely through entrepreneurship. Right. But also for someone to be able to really express who he is if he's holding some kind of traumas, because, you know, he has his or her parents were not present when he was a child or is because of structural poverty or violence, he will not be able to express himself even as an entrepreneur.
0:20:14 - (Thomas Legrand): So it's definitely, I feel, completely reconciled. But it's a different understanding of who we are. We need to recognize more and more people and science and researchers recognize that we are fundamentally relational beings. So, you know, even our identity is being formed through relationships first with our mother, with our parents, with our community, and even happiness Study tell us this is the number one factor to be happy, cultivate good relationship.
0:20:47 - (Will Rucker): So I just want to kind of summarize What I'm hearing, and please correct me if I'm misinterpreting anything, but what I'm hearing you say is that when we have a established foundation where basic needs, the things that all of us need are met, it allows us to be more of who we are as individuals.
0:21:08 - (Thomas Legrand): Exactly, exactly. Ingelhard, which is the most important, he was managing the global values of survey. And. And he says basically we have experienced a big shift in the last decade. There are some risks, we are going backward, but that's what we have experienced in the last decades is to moving from survival towards self expression. And when our basic needs have been met, then we are not in that survival mode, but we can start to flourish and express really who we are. So that's, I think, what society should strive for.
0:21:46 - (Will Rucker): I want you to say that one more time. Moving from survival to self expression. Self expression. That's beautiful.
0:21:54 - (Will Rucker): Yeah.
0:21:54 - (Will Rucker): And, and it's. For me, it's, it's freeing. That's. That to me is freedom. To me that is exactly what I want. You know, worrying about survival, it's different when there's not enough. But I think we can see, based on the amount of food waste we have, the hoarding of resources we see with you talk about the enormous wealth gap and inequity in that space. I think we have enough for everybody to survive.
0:22:24 - (Will Rucker): But what we haven't done is transition into this being. And I agree with you that it starts with our policy. So what are some of the policies that you would say as a starting point we should adopt in order to help us move into this state of being?
0:22:41 - (Thomas Legrand): So we have already talked about family. Education, of course, is really, is really key. That's where people learn how they function in life. Two days ago, went to see a compassionate school in Las Vegas. It was wonderful to see. And a lot of the ideas that I developed in this book were, were put to work.
0:23:06 - (Will Rucker): So shout out to battleborn Academy. You're doing a great job.
0:23:09 - (Thomas Legrand): Yeah, thank you. So social socio and emotional learning and you know, even scientists have tend to recognize that success is not so much about iq, it's about emotional intelligence. So that's what we should develop also in schools, you know, we were sitting in circles with kids and they were going through different steps about, you know, how they feel, what they have experienced, the big discoveries they are making or what they have enjoyed. And you know, they are really melanin at the same time. We're just discussing with other people that what we are trying to bring to adults and now we see them practicing 5, 7, 9 years old.
0:23:57 - (Thomas Legrand): So that's. That's beautiful.
0:23:59 - (Will Rucker): Wow. So we've dealt with family leave, making sure that parents can actually be present in the lives of their newborns. We've talked about education, making sure we're investing in our kids. It's sounding to me like you. You think kids are important.
0:24:15 - (Thomas Legrand): Definitely. I mean, that's. I mean, this. If we talk about cultural change, cultural evolution, that's. It's a matter of a generation. Right? So we need. All of us need to evolve, but it goes also. It's stronger when it's just a new generation that comes with new values. If we are able also to be able to embrace that, because that can create also conflicts sometimes. But definitely our children are very important because a lot of.
0:24:49 - (Thomas Legrand): Of these things indeed, it's. To me, being is a natural, healthy aspiration that we can find in everyone's heart and especially in. So it's not. Adults have a long story and they can already be distorted. They can have traumas, etc. That kind of disconnect them for their natural aspiration. But I'm sure that kids naturally get it. It's really. It's just part of our nature. It's part of even, we could say the nature of every living being to become really who he is, who she is.
0:25:38 - (Will Rucker): What a gift it is to hear that again. It reminds me that compassion is a living thread. It runs through every season of our lives, always relevant, always needed. My hope is that as you go about your day, you'll notice one place where you can let that thread guide you. Because when we practice compassion, we're never just helping someone else. We're also healing ourselves. This is your host, Will Rucker. Thank you for joining me on Compassionate Las Vegas.
0:26:10 - (Will Rucker): Together, we're building a community of compassion, showing that it's more than an aspiration. It's a practice that transforms culture and shapes the legacy we leave. If today's episode inspired you, I'd love for you to like and subscribe, leave a review and share it with your people. Every time you do, you help this community grow, and you bring more compassion into our world. Until next time, Remember to start with heart and live with clarity.
0:26:41 - (Will Rucker): Lead with compassion. And as I always remind you, you are not just a drop in the ocean. You are the entire ocean in a drop. And what you do matters. So live compassionately.
